last call

[ruselhays]

Ok Guys, here it is: With the distributor wire disconnected the timing is dead on at 10 degrees. As soon as you reconnect it the timing goes to 35 degrees and stays there. I have all the shop manuals--the Ford dealer charged me 485.00 and didn't fix it. I put a new computer in it--no avail. The car also has a new EGR system, new isc, new tps, new VAM, new ignition module and stator, new wires, new distributor cap and button(all motorcraft), new plugs, and nothing seems to work. No codes are returned during diagnostics. Has anybody ever seen this before?

Rus Hays

[SVOeric]

Sounds like you might have some of those wiring issues we have all run in to.

Can you give us a little more description on what's going on with the car?

You say timing is staying 35 deg advanced

is this your only symptom ?

If you turn the distributor, with the spout plugged in, does the timing stay at 35 deg, or does it change?

As far as troubleshooting goes, I would consider picking up a junk-yard distributor, with a TFI on it. Swap them out, and see what happens. You should be able to pick these up fairly cheap. (about $40 or so I would think)

If you still have the same problems, I would bet you have some bare wire grounding somewhere. You especially want to check the harnes right where the TFI module connects.

I would certainly have a talk with the guys at ford. If they don't fix it, I don't pay it... -- and so far --, I've only been kicked out of ONE Ford service department.

[ruselhays]

last call re

Eric,

The timing does change when you twist the distributor but you cannot turn it very much. With the wire disconnected the timing is at a perfect ten degrees. As soon as you reconnect ti it goes to 35 degrees and stays there. I feel like it is a wiring problem also. I have checked all of the ignition module wires for continuity to the ecu connector and I have checked the connector (at the distributor for shorts and it seems ok although the guy who had it before me had cut it off and replaced it with another. It appears as if the car had had a fire under the hood at some point.

Thanks for the input,
Rus

[SVOeric]

I suggested the distributor swap to rule out a bad stator...

I believe I have heard people having problems getting new ones that were bad before.

I'd make sure that whoever swaped that TFI connecter before had the wires connected correctly.

You say you tested for continuity, but if one of these wires has a bare spot on it, and is shorting to ground (or another wire that also has a bare spot) you will still get continuity on that wire, So you may still have a wiring problem.

These types of problems really suck. once you've eliminated that it's not a stator, it is either time to tear into that wiring, or see about picking up a spare harnes.

[TurboPete]

Eric, anybody, What should the timing jump to after the sprout is reconnected for an SVO. On the TC it is suppose to jump to 28-30* with the base timing set at 10*

[ruselhays]

last call

I am pretty sure the stator is OK and I think the one that was replaced was Ok also. I did not know that the normal timing with the wire connected was 28-30* still, mine goes to an honest 35 and stays there. I am going to reconnect the two power wires into the ignition module and then run three new wires (the three that actually control the advance) all the way back to the ECU. If that does not fix it we'll have to see where to go from there. I'll let you know tomorrow--this thing should be right at 300hp if i could ever get it sorted out.

Rus

[TurboPete]

Ruselhayes, I did a little reading today after I posted the above response. According to one book (Actron scanner code book) the computer added advance is +20*, +/- 3* So 27 to 33* advance is within spec. I'm looking for further documentaion on the +/- 3* part. The 20* added is further documented in other places

I can e-mail you a bench testing procedure for the TFI and PIP. It's a large jpg of a testing page, but if you can manipulate it, ot's printable. Only requires an v/ohm meter

[ruselhays]

tfi pip details

pete,
I would love to have the procedure. If the file is too big for my hotmail account send it to my cs account at thecastlehays@cs.com. The Ford dealers I paid so much monmey too said the advance was way too much but it souds pretty close to right. It advances to about 35 and then after a minute or two it starts to fluctuate between 32 and 35 which makes the idle fluctuate. I feel like it is not responding to the computwer because it is running incredibly rich (10-11 mpg)and the throttle response is absolutely dead. I pulled the head off to change valve springs and found everything caked with carbon with less than 1000 miles since the rebuild.

Thanks for the help,
Rus

[TurboPete]

Rus,
I sent you the TFI/PIP file to the address you posted. I also sent you the fuel system diagnostics in a seperate email. These are from the 1988 Service manuals but should apply. I ran the codes on mine yesterday just for s..ts and giggles. I noticed the same thing during part of the timing test, the timing was varying back and forth about 4-5 degrees and idle was rough. Then it stopped and smoothed out??? Since I got no codes of concern, I think everything is fine.
On occassion mine has had a miss or stumble under high rpm and boost conditions that I thought might be a fuel problem. Lately it's been running like a raped ape so I don't know whats going on. I'm going to run some of the fuel system diagnostics today to see what I can find. This morning it passed local emissions testing with flying colors.

Eric, I have gotten reman dist that had a new, dead, PIP in it.

[DON86SVO]

TIMING

I"m not an expert on this, but I know for a fact the timing should not change when you plug the spout connector back in. If you try to adjust the timing with the spout connector plugged in the PCM will move the timing back to where it was set before you turned the distributor. I would suggest you try a known good PCM. I don't believe your distributor is the culprit.

Don Cotham
Mid_Tenn Ford Truck Sales

[SVOeric]

ummm... Don, yes.. the timing should change when you plug the spout in. and as it was posted, it should advance to about 30 deg.

After reading his other problems, There may be nothing wrong with his timing advance at all..

his issue sounds as if it may be CAM timing, (Possibly a slipped timing belt) not ignition timing.

You also should check the Oxygen sensor, and the wiring connected to it.

Are you running stock injectors???

[DON86SVO]

ERIC.....NO STOCK ENGINE IS DESIGNED HAVE 30 DEGREES OF ADVANCE AT IDLE. THE PCM SHOULD ADVANCE THE TIMING TO A TOTAL OF 30 DEGREES AT 2500-2800 RPM. I HAVE SET THE TIMING MANY TIMES ON MY 86 AND THE BASE TIMING DOES NOT CHANGE WHEN YOU REINSTALL THE SPOUT CONNECTOR THE OTHER 20 DEGREES COMES IN WHEN THE ENGINE IS REVED.

[ruselhays]

last call

Thanks for the info Pete. I will try to run through those diagnostics tomorrow.

Eric, the injectors are stock, brand new, flow matched and balanced. the O2 sensor is also brand new(motorcraft) and I have shot all of the wires on it also.

I am quite sure that the second ECU I bought is good which makes me think that the one I have right now is good. The interseting question is the cam timing. i bought the automotosports roller cam and I am quite sure it is installed correctly although i am not sure it is the right cam...if they sent me the wrong cam how would i ever know? The timing belt has not slipped--I just checked it for the fourth time.

I have put out a desperate call to TY Burgin in Atlanta to see if he has time to look thing over. Unitl i hear from him I hope you guys will keep up with the input, i really appreciate it. At some point I'm confident we'll figure this thing out although I don't know how much more my wallet can stand.

Thanks again,
Rus

[SVOeric]

T y is actually in odenville AL, however, he will tak care of you.

Ty knows his stuff. Youre headed in the right direction.

[SvoTy]

Originally posted by DON86SVO
ERIC.....NO STOCK ENGINE IS DESIGNED HAVE 30 DEGREES OF ADVANCE AT IDLE. THE PCM SHOULD ADVANCE THE TIMING TO A TOTAL OF 30 DEGREES AT 2500-2800 RPM. I HAVE SET THE TIMING MANY TIMES ON MY 86 AND THE BASE TIMING DOES NOT CHANGE WHEN YOU REINSTALL THE SPOUT CONNECTOR THE OTHER 20 DEGREES COMES IN WHEN THE ENGINE IS REVED.

If your timing is not changing when you plug the spout in you have a problem.

With the spout out it is 10 degrees with it in it is around 27, if you use a dial back timing light you will see the computer advance and retard the timing if you rev the engine, but the idle timing with the spout in is well above 10 degrees.

You have to remember that these are not the old style points ignitions, the computer will advance and retard the timing according to the strategy tables that are programmed to it.

Ty