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**svobud** · 12-12-2002, 01:01 PM

jeeezzz louise...that's some serious 'K" on the cost for molds ... about twice as much as we figured a few years back. I was always thinking these figures...

you could probably sell 500 'compete sets' in the first year - maybe two years.
about the easiest/affordable retail for all 6 lights - $600 (people are paying twice that for NOS stuff right now)
that gives you 300k gross ... in 2 years.

with your figures Chris - and you're lacking the startup cost for the outers, no proffit in it. Makes the future quite dim (no pun intended), huh?

I heard through the grapevine that an individual may have a couple of the original Ford molds. But, that's just a RUMOR. So please - take it as such. I assume if he does have them ... that he may be working on a project to have them repopped.

**lonchair** · 12-12-2002, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by svobud
I heard through the grapevine that an individual may have a couple of the original Ford molds. But, that's just a RUMOR. So please - take it as such. I assume if he does have them ... that he may be working on a project to have them repopped.

I belive I have heard the same rumor. But as long as NOS prices are so high and they still have a supply to sell, repro parts are still a ways off.

Man those are some high prices. For those investment prices, I'd be happy saving money and making a kinda-sorta replacement lens from drape formed acrylic sheeting over a foam buck. Theyed be cool and clear too with out the prizm cuts on the backside. (I'm sure I just over simplified the heck out of it though)

**Majestic** · 12-12-2002, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by lonchair
making a kinda-sorta replacement lens from drape formed acrylic sheeting over a foam buck. Theyed be cool and clear too with out the prizm cuts on the backside. (I'm sure I just over simplified the heck out of it though)

Actually, this is kind of where I am headed with this right now. I can get a one piece bucket made on the cheap and spend a bit of money on the lense. They can be made to look good, though not a true replacement item.

Chris

**SVOPaul** · 12-12-2002, 07:32 PM

I have been telling people for years how expensive it was to reproduce these based on mold costs....often on other websites people with no business or practical experience tell me how I don't know what I am talking about and how they could get them made pretty cheap....maybe some of these people will finally "get it". Your quotes are fairly accurate, it is always cheaper to do it overseas but you must have the connections to get it done otherwise you need to factor in a few trips over their yourself to oversee and arrange things.

Here are the facts about the Ford molds:

-You must have Fords permission in order to use them....fat chance on that one(as in you have zero chances of it) as one individual/company has the permission from Ford to use them(and any other mold).

-I have spoken with that individual a number of times and he has been trying to take possession of those molds for some time, the company that has them at first could not locate them and although I think a couple were located(headlights), he has not been able to get them yet....but is trying.

**eohippus** · 12-13-2002, 04:07 AM

mold costs

Well, first of all I am sure you are just blowing off steam when you say "Obviously, I told them to get ****ed on those mold prices.", because they are in the right ballpark and are probably being straight with you. Not that you couldn't improve on them were you to shop around, though you would find it is still not enough to make a difference.

Since I really do think you were probably more polite than that, I'll offer my 2 cents:

Offshore mold costs ballpark-out at between 1/2 (Mexico) and 1/5 (mainland China) of costs here stateside, almost entirely due to labor costs. A post above notes that you would need industry contacts to deal with these vendors successfully - this is true. However, you already have an "open door" through with you can work. This is the american distributors of other headlight products already manufactured offshore (there are many of them!) Now, if profit was your primary motive, this would not be too attractive, because a distributor as an intermediary will seriously cut into your margin. If, however, your main concern is to get such products made at no net cost to you, with perhaps some compensation for your effort, then you might propose a joint venture. You would probably be expected to pony-up the upfront tooling costs, perhaps more (thus as little risk for them as they can negotiate from you). The distributor would sell them, and your cut would repay your role as the provider of capital. Your return won't be great, but it will get the job done.

Why do they not do it themselves? The quantities involved just do not interest them. They need incentive. Once they have incentive, they already know how to do the job properly.

I have not been involved it this sort of stuff for nearly 5 years (and it was non-automotive anyway), so I cannot give you any hot leads. But the general outline above is sound, and not unheard of.

**Majestic** · 12-13-2002, 12:31 PM

Let me explain...

myself on the "get ****ed" statement. I was a tad upset because this shop gave me the "we really need the business" and "we can do protype molds that will REALLY be inexpensive" talk. After all was said and done, they didn't cut one corner or do anything differently than if they were doing a run of one million parts. Their "rough" estimate prior to actually delivering the bid was about $10k per marker light assembly.... not the $75K they quoted me. So yes, I did tell them to get, ahem, bent when they came back with these prices.

Chris

**eohippus** · 12-13-2002, 12:59 PM

poor choice of words ...

... if understandable after such a letdown. I am sure you must know all this, but I'll lay it out for those who may not. Since this sort of thing will happen to you at least as often as not (if you pursue this project), you should mentally prepare to let people know your displeasure in the most polite and businesslike possible terms. Why?

1) I have had such experiences as yours (we all do), and yet on one occasion, when all the final bids were in, the "problem" vendor had seen the light and got the job (did great, too). Not an option once the bridge is burned.

2) Vendors talk among themselves. Word gets around about customers who are more trouble than they are worth. You do NOT want to get such a rep.

You are hardly at that point with only one incident. But forwarned is forarmed.

**dsrk98** · 12-13-2002, 03:56 PM

I would assume with all of those after market "new age looking" lenses on the market for everything from Nissan pick-ups to Kia's, lenses would not be that hard to make. There seems to be several outfits that make the clear/smoke euro lenses. Has anyone contacted one of these companies?

**svobud** · 12-13-2002, 04:07 PM

it's not they're hard to make - it's the fact that there were less than 10k SVO originally produced .. and the lights ONLY fit the SVO and no other Mustang. Once the tooling is done - it's my understanding, it's not hard to copy it, (and sell the mold) to another company.

The cost of production/tooling costs vs. possible number of units sold isn't appealing to someone in 'business'. If there was money in it - they would have been produced by now.

But - as far as I know ... no one has contacted one of these euro-companies about making them.

**dsrk98** · 12-13-2002, 06:13 PM

I C

I see what you are saying, these companies buy and sell the molds for these new cars but are unwilling to make a new for the svo for lack of projected profit.

**indiana dave** · 12-13-2002, 10:24 PM

Well, I've not been online much lately, but can see that I've missed out on something...
I can say that there are molders that can and will make those molds cheaper... A mold that is a step above a prototype mold would probably do the job in this case...
25K is actually a pretty good deal on a medium to high production mold, but is overkill for what we need.

Were you quoted a (2) cavity left & right hand mold for each set?
Also, you say (3) molds per side for the inner marker lights... Then you are molding it exactly like factory? How about molding the back white housing, with the silver surround as one piece. Then you can get Eastwoods silver reflective paint and paint the inside.

Ask them to quote a single mold for each part... They can run them in a smaller press where the hourly rate is lower. Also, the molds may be simpler and therefore cheaper.
Here is what you need to ask for:
We need a low production "bare bones" mold... Parts cut solid into P-20 steel "A" & "B" plates will suffice... cold sprue, edge-gated, (you'll have to cut the gate and runner from the part... kinda like you do with model cars.
The bulb socket area is the most complicate area... I designed the mold for the 99 Grand Cherokee, a Peterbuilt truck, and some other light housings, and this area is very high tolerance, and very tricky. It's also the only area that isn't a "mirror" from the left to the right side. Low number of waterlines for cooling... We don't need this mold to be fast.

A lot of high volume shops won't even touch the tools because set-up time almost matches the run time... If they take 1 hour to set up the mold in a press, make 500 parts per day, well it won't take long to make the number of parts you need. Then they spend another hour taking the mold out, and putting in another one.
They make more money on molds running 100,000 parts/year that they run into the gound.

Also, in this business (I realize that you are NOT in this business) you need to be professional at all times... you never know when you may need to go back to someone after you realize they aren't crazy... Anyway, i'm sure that shop will be willing to put water under the bridge if you be political, and talk rationally about how to cut the costs... Take this with you, and let them know you have someone who knows what he is talking about helping you out... give me their number and let me call them if you want me to.
I've been too busy at work to ask around, but let me see what I can find out... I may be able to get someone to build a couple cheap molds & do a short production run.
Oh yea, did they include the price to scan, or digitize the parts?

**svohoo** · 12-17-2002, 11:17 AM

Guys,

Dave is absolutely right; six figures worth of hard tooling is overkill. The OEM's make this kind of investment up front because it has to last for half a million shots or more, and then they can make parts for pennies apiece. I just spoke with a guy who has done some work for me before. It looks like they can make an epoxy injection mold tool for the inner marker lens, which would be good for 500 to 1000 parts. He's getting more information and a quote together, but his initial guess was in the neighborhood of $3,000 to $4,000 for the mold and a few bucks per part, and they can use an original as a pattern. This is the simplest part, so obviously it's going to be the cheapest mold, but he's looking into the possibility of the other lenses and the housings. I also am waiting to hear back from someone about scanning/digitizing. Another option, at least for the lenses, is molding them out of clear polyurethane instead of Lexan. A mold would be about $1000 and parts would run $20 to $25 ea. Only thing is they won't have the durability of Lexan. I'll keep you posted.

**coupe** · 12-17-2002, 05:37 PM

I think they should be made out of polycarbonate like before. The newer lenses don't tend to yellow like those of yesteryear. I would also think maybe PMMA acrylic could work, maybe thermoformed as opposed to injection molded. Injection will always cost a lot...no matter the plastic.

Just a bit of input.

Dave's in the right direction though...go-4-it!

**indiana dave** · 12-17-2002, 08:23 PM

Well, I have my junk inner & outers at my office now...
We just had some other parts "photographed" and had CAD files made. It only cost a couple hundred bucks. We do business with this place a lot. We are swamped right now, but I'll try to get over there and have quotes done on these parts.

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