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A thread was posted a couple months back about air conditiong. It stated that conversion to the ozone friendly refigerant will ruin your compressor. Can anyone provide some examples of that? Also, was that due to the molecular makeup of the new refrigerant ... sorry, don't know the buzz words for the stuff (R something)!
There was a nice link here or on another board. Basically it's the oil and the seals that are the problem. The oil for the old R12 freon does not mix well with the oil for the new R134a. The new oil is not compatiable with the old seals.
I know many people have converted. The right way is to flush the whole system and start over with new seals, oil and freon 134a. Even with this it is not perfect as the compressor might have the old seals in it. Some people just pump out the old freon and put in the new stuff. Not sure how long that lasts. Either way, replace all the oings as it's cheap insurance (use the green orings). With all this said, a r12 refill is not sounding much more expensive.
Although you can still find it around, I believe that it's illegal to put R12 in your car unless you drive over the border. The Castrol conversion kit has an oil that it claims to be specifically made for retrofits which is R12/134 compatible.
You can still use R12, but it has to be installed by an A/C shop who has the proper containment equipment. It is more expensive than R134, but it is still available as of a year ago when I had my AC recharged.
Mike S
'86 SVO 9L Leather
'86 SVO 9L Road Warrior
'96 300ZXTT
You can still use R12, but it has to be installed by an A/C shop who has the proper containment equipment. It is more expensive than R134, but it is still available as of a year ago when I had my AC recharged.
I'll ask around at work about that. We were just required over the last several years to phase out R-12 in our fleet due to some sort of state or federal regulation. Maybe that had something to do with local government agencies, who knows.
The production of R12 was phased out several years ago. Thus all new cars had to have something else. Responsible companies made sure their fleets had a plan as well. Since shops are required to recycle and R12 removed from cars, there is a new source for R12. It's call recycled R12. Pretty much all R12 available now is recycled I think. No big deal they just re-refine it and filter it . It's not cheap but it was not cheap when the last made it. The cost of using R12 seems cheaper to me than the down sides of conversion. There is no simple solution with a magic freon mix. Every choice has its draw backs. If you go with a newer style compressor then I would consider going with R134a.
I checked at work tonight and it's not illegal to do the R-12, just more and more expensive. Our agency just voluntarily converted ~5,000 systems over the last several years. The folks who live near the Mexican border have an alternative that costs less. Just drive over there and get it recharged. Of course, if the freon escaped from the system, I'd want to identify and fix the leak before I spent the money on more R-12.
I don't know the specific laws about R12 but I'm pretty sure it mostly geared around not dumping it into the air and limiting who can get their hands on it. Thus certified techs are supposed to be the ones handling it. I believe if the freon is removed from the sytem, it legal for you to do the repairs. This are no restrictions for R134a as to who can work on it. AC sytem repairs are not that difficult. With a few tools you can do all the repairs except adding the R12 freon. The vacuum pump might be the hardest tool to find but you would be surprised on how that can be improvised.
Wow, what a small world! This same thread has been going on on the Gen 1 RX7 list for a couple of weeks.
A license is required to purchase and install R12. You _can_ install it yourself, as there are not a lot of A/C police out there looking for violators. Well, maybe not unless you live in Kalifornia. :-) You can get certified online to handle R12, though. It is called the EPA609 certification, and you can get it from http://www.epatest.com. Certification cost is $20.
While R12 is getting hard to find, it is available, but at about $60-$70US/LB, it is getting expensive. Search EvilBay for R12, and you will get lots of hits. Most sellers require your EPA609 certification, though.
The stuff you get near the Mexican border usually turns out to be a can of water, so watch out. There are alternatives out there, some of which are compatible with R12. One such compound is made by Envirosafe called ES12a. It is supposedly compatible with both R12 and R134a.
R134a is the other 'freon' that is commonly used. It is supposedly environmentally safe, but also supposedly flamable, and a little more dangerous to inhale than R12. With R134, you MUST replace the oil in the compressor, and may have to replace the o-rings, but probably should do so as that is what usually leaks on the Ford system. It is probably also a good idea that you replace the filter/drier, too, while you have the system open.
Propane will also supposedly work well, but you have to be careful of leaks. :-)
There is some speculation as to whether or not R134 is as efficient as R12. It seems to be a system-by-system issue. I _think_ it may have to do with how the R134 was installed. Some on the RX7 list indicated that it is important to pull a vacuum on the system, but nothing more than 10", or you could overfill the system with the 134, causing it to have to work harder, and therefore not be as efficient.
I will admit that all the above is what I have read, as the only R134 systems we presently have in our fleet are factory installs. We did have a 2nd Gen RX7 that I suspect was a 134 aftermarket install, as it didn't seem to work well.
In 2001 I got an NOS compressor (HR980),new lines and the black cylinder by the firewall (I forgot its name), I also got the green o-rings and Castrol kid that came with the o-rings and a special oil to clean and flush all the components(condenser,evaporator). When all was done I filled the system (at a gas station) with the R134 soba (not freon, freon is R12) and all is working fine for the last 2 years. the cooling is great and cheaper to refill if needed. After spending $125 twice to refill before with R12 (don't know where in the system I had a leak) I decided that this was the best route.
In NJ R12 can be found if you know someone in the business and they charge a lot....it is not legally sold. If I am not mistaken, this is federal mandate (thanks Mr. Gore)...
It _can_ be legally sold, it cannot be legally manufactured. You MUST have an EPA certification and the correct equipment to install it (unless you are installing it yourself), but it is not illegal to install it, or use it. They just don't make it anymore.
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