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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbeaird
    The amount of pressure, even at race speeds, are not enough to lift a steel SVO hood off the fenders.
    I agree but I was thinking a smaller amount of flex could be sufficient to do what I described.

    The TC has a lot better air flow control, probably spurred on by what was discovered with development of the SVO.
    Given the TC preceeded the SVO I find that difficult to accept. In my opinion, this fact makes the culprit of the front bumper hood gap all the more probable.

    ...it has a (deeper) chin spoiler, which will help the car pull air through the radiator...
    I haven't seen stock photos that show this. If there are any differences, it doesn't appear to be significant in the Fox era TC. Pull up some ground level profile photos and see for yourself. LINK: http://www.mustangandfords.com/event...e-super-coupe/.
    I'm not speaking as an authority and @Laredo is right to point out my unfamiliarity with the SVO but I am not bereft of logical reasoning and something about the explanations given so far seem 'off'. Why isn't the IC used for forced air intake, how is it currently routed?
    Last edited by yldouright; 07-13-2018 at 07:22 PM.

  2. #17
    the well known PIA VIN guy Ken Potter's Avatar
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    I'll go ahead and say it. I don't think anything anybody here has said, or will say in the future will suit you.


    Later...

  3. #18
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    @Ken Potter
    I seem to have offended you and if that is so please accept my apology. I tend to resist things that don't make sense to me, it's not personal.

  4. #19
    the well known PIA VIN guy Ken Potter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yldouright View Post
    I tend to resist things that don't make sense to me...
    You've got four guys, me included, that have a combined total of at least 80 years experience with SVOs yet you continue to doubt and question us.

    I'm an original owner since 8/8/85 ( nearly 33 years ) and currently own 5 SVOs. I have owned another 8 over the years which I've sold. We all have both open track, auto cross, and daily driving experience. I can't count the number of times I've been 100+MPH. I highly suggest you do some research before asking any more questions, then doubting what you're told.

    If we tell you something you can bet good money that we know what we're talking about.

  5. #20
    the well known PIA VIN guy Ken Potter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yldouright View Post
    [COLOR=#333333]Why isn't the IC used for forced air intake, how is it currently routed?
    If you can seriously ask this question you need to read up on how turbo charged engines work, and not just on SVOs.

  6. #21
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    @Ken Potter
    I have expertise in certain things and I view challenges to what I know as opportunities to show and confirm this expertise. There are occasions when those challenges expose a superior understanding or evidence I hadn't considered. When that happens I gracefully cede the point and thank that challenger for these improvements in my knowledge. I have found that this habit has made me many friends and more importantly, it has encouraged many to feel free to debate with me. This has made me a sounding board for experts in numerous disciplines. They appreciate my candor and my insistence on factual evidence and in turn, I appreciate the exposure to things I don't know. I do run into people that get groused when I call them out on something and they often cite their years of experience and blah blah blah but I remind them that my greatest joy in life is making everyone understand things better so we all can do better. If that person recognizes this as a worthy reason for my challenges, we usually make friends and learn more together as we go forward but if that person equates my challenges with pulling his pants down in public, things don't end that happily.

    I am aware that a typical intercooler receives charged air from the turbo which then goes to the intake manifold but given the unique placement of the intercooler in the SVO I suggested a superior design potential which the SVO team might have thought of already. Evidently they didn't use that routing and that is a shame because I think it would work much better. In my head, I imagined the dirty air intake from the scoop passing through the IC fins into the filter through a duct and then to the charger. This feedback rerouting has many benefits which I am in the process of quantifying as I write this. At first glance, it looks like 11hp on a stock engine with a longer, taller a slightly flatter torque curve but it could very well be much more with other work because of how it reduces air intake pressure through the filter. The line between a dumbass and genius is usually defined by who does the evaluation

  7. #22
    OVER-BOOST!! gbeaird's Avatar
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    Um, no. Cool air passing through the IC would extract heat from that IC. You don't want heated air going into the air cleaner unless it's very cold outside. Even then, heat generated by compressing the air will negate most, if not all of any disadvantage to ingesting very cold air.

    On a turbocharged car at boost, heat is the enemy, both from a hot IC and hot air getting into the intake tract. It's a quick way to kill power.
    Gene Beaird,
    86 2R SVO, G Stock,
    Pearland, Texas

  8. #23
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    @gbeaird
    Thanks for engaging me in this exercise. Think about what you're saying. Don't we want the charge entering the engine to be as cool as possible? If so, it's better to cool it later than sooner! Air, like most fluids, has a geometeric pressure curve. Pressure doesn't change much 40-120F degrees at bar relative to what happens at 2 bar. Look at the numbers and see for yourself. Now, picture this feedback scenario at speed where the air is forced into the plenum without the engine bay 'balloon' effect that prompted this innovation in the first place. Efficiencies are gained all around and you have just what you want for engine volumetric efficiency; tension at low rpm to keep a nice torque and decreasing resistance as you climb the revs! If you can fit a plenum under the SVO intercooler, this could be a genius improvement

  9. #24
    Pimpin Pumpkin Carver Laredo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yldouright View Post
    …If you can fit a plenum under the SVO intercooler, this could be a genius improvement
    Genius? Not so much Einstein.
    Gene (as usual) is correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by yldouright View Post
    …Think about what you're saying…
    I’ll toss this right back at you.

    I see where you are attempting to go with your theory of the compressed heated air, think refrigeration. But what you’re missing (and Gene tried so politely tried to explain to you) is that while in your model the heat extracted from the intercooler gets essentially pushed back “upstream,” it is still just that – upstream. Which means that “uncompressed” heat will come back into the turbo inlet as warmer than ambient air, and get recompressed again to go right back into the intercooler…again. It would be like taking your window air conditioner out of the window, setting it in the middle of the house and expecting it to cool the room. You have gained nothing.
    25 years of automotive product development, durability testing, and field engineering have taught me that in general, the most reliable and cost effective means of engineering a solution are the most basic. K.I.S.S.

    Back to basics (again):
    • Pull your intake air from the coolest, highest pressure, and efficient airflow available, the front or inner fender air flow (which the SVO does in stock formation)
    • Get the intercooler also into a cooler airflow (and away from being parked right over the top of the sometimes glowing red turbocharger. This is one of the more “un-genius” features of the SVO).
    o Front mount (away from the turbo)
    o Or…Insulate the turbo (ceramic, etc)
    "If there's no plan, what can go wrong...?"

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laredo
    It would be like taking your window air conditioner out of the window, setting it in the middle of the house and expecting it to cool the room. You have gained nothing.
    I disagree. Let's look at what happens stock:

    1. The dirty air comes in from the wheel well, unforced as far as I can tell, at ambient temp. Let's use 40-120 degrees for the premise.
    2. The cool filtered air, highly receptive to heat transfer, is charged to 2 bar (14.7psi example) in the turbo and sent to the IC.
    3. Depending on the truth of the engine bay 'balloon effect' described above, the IC effectiveness gets annulled at speed by lack of directional air flow through the IC. Heatsink effectiveness follows an efficiency curve that gains geometrically in normal ambient air to a given point after which the additional airflow gains begin to matter less. Given the size of the SVO IC, its fin spacing and factoring the temp of the charged air, I estimate that point at ~180-260mph. Conversely, efficiency drops geometrically as it slows and without enough air flow through the IC, there is a point where the IC begins heating the air into the engine!

    In my air feedback scenario, the initial dirty intake will be warmer but that makes it MORE compressible and its temp delta in and out of the turbo will be less. The air temp entering the IC will be insignificantly higher than in the stock routing. Now, the forced intake via the air scoop and the huge cooling gains with the flow through the IC DO warm the dirty intake but the greater heat losses in this feedback system more than offsets this. The net air temp into the engine is similar at low speed and MUCH lower at high speed. Do you see my points more clearly now?

    There is one point you've made that I agree will help reduce engine bay ambient temps. The proximity of the turbo to the engine suggests to wrap it but that probably has increased wear and shorter life consequences for the turbo. Whether this is worth doing requires a separate analysis. I know many of you have removed your IC's, has anyone actually measured the space under it? By the way, I reviewed what @Ken Potter said on the previous page and I misunderstood his description of the air flow path reversing through the IC. I assumed there was some kind of seal UNDER the IC which would leave the hood seal the area vulnerable to air leak. I now understand there is open space under the IC so knowing how much space will take us to the next step.
    Last edited by yldouright; 07-24-2018 at 12:29 PM.

  11. #26
    Pimpin Pumpkin Carver Laredo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yldouright View Post
    In my air feedback scenario… The air temp entering the IC will be insignificantly higher than in the stock routing.
    Completely not so. But if you think so, there ya' go. Have at it!

    Quote Originally Posted by yldouright View Post
    The proximity of the turbo to the engine suggests to wrap it …
    It’s the proximity to the intercooler that’s the issue, not the engine.

    Quote Originally Posted by yldouright View Post
    … but that probably has increased wear and shorter life consequences for the turbo. Whether this is worth doing requires a separate analysis
    So…in one thread you suggest twin-scrolls, custom intakes, etc like money is no object, on the other you worry about longevity of a ceramic coated turbo. What the hell do you want…?

    Quote Originally Posted by yldouright View Post
    I know many of you have removed your IC's…
    You know this? Really??
    Relocated, yes. Removed, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by yldouright View Post
    …has anyone actually measured the space under it? … knowing how much space will take us to the next step.
    Other than lifting the hood and looking, highly doubtful. You go right ahead if you think it’ll help you with that “next step” and all your “quantifying” theories and “analysis." Meanwhile, I’ll continue on my merry way with practical application of basic science, common sense, and experience.

    BTW – There’s a chapter in a book titled “How to Win Friends and Influence People” by Dale Carnegie about "How to Make a Good First Impression." Ya’ll should check it out sometime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Potter View Post
    I'll go ahead and say it. I don't think anything anybody here has said, or will say in the future will suit you...

    Later.
    I’m with you Ken.
    "If there's no plan, what can go wrong...?"

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laredo
    It’s the proximity to the intercooler that’s the issue, not the engine.
    Thank you for the correction. Anyone can be wrong at times, even you guys

    Quote Originally Posted by Laredo
    BTW – There’s a chapter in a book titled “How to Win Friends and Influence People” by Dale Carnegie about "How to Make a Good First Impression."
    I've read the book and recognize that some fragile people require a certain massaging of their egos to get anything useful out of them. It's a feminine quality that is quite unbecoming in a man. I live and grew up in Brooklyn and I can tell you that until very recently, even the very well situated and privileged found themselves quite abused and on the lower rungs of our local pecking order if they exhibited that kind of weakness. Who is right and who is wrong got sorted out very quickly and it wasn't unusual to see cops with black eyes and missing teeth when they made a habit of not acting right around citizens. Things are different now. The police will shoot good citizens for talking back to them and judges rule on what they fear from political reprisal instead of what they hear. US citizen Paul Manafort can get visited by a swat team in his residence during sleeping hours and some godless and thoroughly corrupt unelected bureau head can make an attempt to overthrow a duly elected president with impunity. Yes, the world has changed but its people like you that insist on decorum and respect based on position instead of what's correct that are changing it. To me, what is right was ALWAYS more important than who was right. That's about the most American thing I can think of and it's really sad to see that ethos in such short supply on this forum. All I need is the approximate dimensions of the space under the IC and I suspect I can get a stock SVO make 225whp at 120mph. Seems like a really cheap cost of admission to anyone who doesn't have a bruised ego getting in their way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laredo
    You know this? Really??
    Yes, if I'm to believe the posts I'm reading about members swapping their stock IC units for the ones on the TurboCoupe and others that have upgraded to larger after market ICs. It is reasonable to assume they had to remove the stock IC to effect the change, isn't it? Sometimes, people interpret things the way they want to and deliberately conflate/confuse a concept as an exercise of self-validatation when they suspect they're wrong and fear the damage it could cause their prestige. I described this in an earlier post and I guess we can name it 'cold fanny syndrome'. Is yours feeling a little chilly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laredo
    Meanwhile, I’ll continue on my merry way with practical application of basic science, common sense, and experience.
    Are you making the perverse inference that what I'm suggesting isn't scientifically derived or based on logic that should be common to anyone? Here's an appropriate quote from King Lear, "thou shoulds't not have grown old before ye grew wise".
    Last edited by yldouright; 07-22-2018 at 09:35 AM.

  13. #28
    the well known PIA VIN guy Ken Potter's Avatar
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    I was born and raised in New York.

    You are a dumbass.

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