Max size injectors on modified EEC

[BlueCASVO]

So now that I have the 85 running right, I was going through the Bolt On Horsepower and Upgrades sticky at the top of this section - yes I do read it sometimes, and compare what I have done to what it says. So far I have done everything almost - I have no boost control unit yet (I am looking at the Greddy Profec B Spec II, the import tuner mags say it is the best bang for the buck, and the most flexible in controlling stuff like boost creep and spiking), so right now I am limited to 10-11 psi. And no, I am not going to do nitrous. My goal is to get solidly past 300hp, and still easily pass California emissions.

However, I had a comment - maybe just a nitpick - about #7, injector and computer upgrades. While searching "injector upgrades" I found this post from Fleming, http://www.svoca.com/forum/showthrea...jector+upgrade where he shows that unless you want a pretty high idle, even going to 52lb injs might be too much for the stock ECU with an EEC tuner card (I believe this would apply to a J3 also, which I have but not in the car yet, or similar mod). I know from watching the emissions test on my stock 86, the max idle speed acceptable for the engine is just under 1200 rpms, with optimum being 1020 (that's what was in the emissions computer), and from Fleming's post it looks like that is unachievable even with 52's (550cc), and in no way could happen with anything larger. From Mike's data it looks like 42's with an EEC tuner or J3 or similar mod is about all you can do, if you want a decent idle and/or have to pass smog. Anything larger than 42's and you have to go to a standalone system, or compromise emissions and idle. Am I understanding this correctly? If so, Tip #7 is kind of misleading; you aren't going to be able to drop in a set of 550cc or larger injectors with a tuner card, and have the car run right at idle.

I'll be taking the 85 to do a dyno test and a smog test after the first of the year, with the LA3 and 36lb injs. Pretty sure it will pass (and will pass smog, too), the only obvious mod it has is the FMIC, which is legal on a car that originally came with an intercooler; I even left in the stock VAM and air cleaner assembly for now, cone filter is on the shelf. Once done with the test I am going to go MAF, Boport 1.5 (have a ranger roller now), and I-don't-know-what for injectors and engine management...

[kiwi]

Your question is for what "now" can be used...or where you are going/ replace them once/they are easy to do/ but who wants to spend the money twice...and no mention of turbo size...

[caroth]

I currently run 65# injectors on gas in the turbo ranger with a J3 "chipped" LA3. There are no problems with high idle or a rich idle condition. I have run 75# injectors with gas on the truck without any issues.

If you goal is 300hp, than a 52-55# injector will be large enough.

I would recommend swapping to an L (LA2, LA3, LB2, LB3, 8UA) series EEC if you want to convert to bigger injectors and a MAF.

FYI, I run 95# injectors with e85 on the SVO and do not have any idle issues.

[Raven855]

I currently run 65# injectors on gas in the turbo ranger with a J3 "chipped" LA3. There are no problems with high idle or a rich idle condition. I have run 75# injectors with gas on the truck without any issues.

If you goal is 300hp, than a 52-55# injector will be large enough.

I would recommend swapping to an L (LA2, LA3, LB2, LB3, 8UA) series EEC if you want to convert to bigger injectors and a MAF.

FYI, I run 95# injectors with e85 on the SVO and do not have any idle issues.

There are a couple of things to consider. On Mikes setup you will not find any wiring issues. I can almost guarantee you the entire wiring loom has been rebuilt and there is minimal grounding or supply issues and that goes along way to getting those sub millisecond injector times. TF has some good threads on what to correct. I contend that a 3G conversion is one of the first mods to perform for the sake of consistency and tuning. If you are only wanting 300HP(at the wheels I assume) the 52s should have no problem getting you there. For a reference this year on the dyno my 85 1b did 240HP and 320 lbs torque. I used the PE computer, intake, injectors, and water cooled turbo from my 85.5. It had a messed up gillis valve for no boost control, the 3G, Magnecore wires, ported E6, 3"exhaust and synthetics fluids for the rest of it. Keep it simple. Your IC will help and a maf conversion with the 52's and Bo's cam will get you pretty close.

[BlueCASVO]

I was rambling last nite, two martinis will do that. The question is will using larger than 42lb injectors with an LA3 modded or 'chipped' still be able to manage a stock idle and pass smog?

Chris, thanks for the info, and thanks for having some bin files on your site. Have downloaded some and been playing with them to learn how to use the Moates stuff. Been using Tunerpro software, seems okay but pretty limited. Is EEC Editor, or EEC Tuner, or some other product give more control over programming for the J3? I noticed in the Tunerpro software the max injector size you can put in is 55lb (52.75), which also made me think that anything larger wouldn't work.

My goal is 325hp or so, and pass Kalifornia Smug test. My setup:
T3/T4 hybrid, 60 trim compressor
Ported inline intakes and exhaust
FMIC
65mm TB
Big valve ported head, currently with Ranger roller
3" all the way back, high flow cat
Complete LA3 conversion with ACT, VSS, etc.
36lb injectors currently
If you have been following my posts in member projects, you know that most of the wiring, engine compartment to interior, has been repaired or replaced, all grounds are good.

Christmas bonus gets me:
Profec
Boport 1.5 kit

Already have 80mm MAF and a Moates setup on the shelf. I have a set of flow tested 75 lb delphi injectors also (PO told me they were 82's or 88's or something, but they aren't). Based on Fleming's post, I thought 75s and Moates wouldn't work, so I either had to sell the 75's and buy 42's/55's, or sell the Moates and buy standalone.

[Alex L]

My goal is 325hp or so, and pass Kalifornia Smug test.
...
T3/T4 hybrid, 60 trim compressor
65mm TB
3" all the way back, high flow cat

would this pass the visual inspection? ive heard stories of people flunking the visual due to a non stock turbo.

if you really wanted to be :ninja:, gut a VAM and mount a MAF sensor in place of the vane.

caroth will likely provide more details (or say im outright wrong ), but going over ~55lb/hr injector requires tweaking some of the underlying numbers to 'fake out' the computer.

not sure on the idle situation, as im not making enough power to come close to maxing out the 35#s

[BlueCASVO]

There are some smog places down on the border that apparently won't question the turbo - I have two friends with Supra TT's, and they have found a couple of shops that won't question the type of turbo, as long as it is in the original position, and not too obviously different (not polished, not huge, etc). They will also let a mod go if the mod is made with factory parts. So a throttle body change is acceptable to them if it still says Ford. I think a MAF might be too, as long as you could make the connector and the brackets look stock. If the car looks like it came that way, they'll pass it. All they care about is that it isn't obviously modified, it passes the sniff test, and they get paid.

Yes, we do the IM-240 test, have for I think two years.

I figure that covering the injector tops in dirt and grime will solve the color problem (55's aren't some weird color, like red, are they? ) - or find some that are black in color. I looked at a couple of replacement 36 lb injectors at Kragen recently, they had black tops.

Originally I was one that got hit with a T3/T4 in a smog check, years ago. Guy knew a lot about turbo cars, and knew it wasn't stock. I didn't have a hot girl with me, so he failed me.

I am going to do the MAF/J3/injs/cam after the smog test. I will get it done on the border, take a hot girl, and wear an Immigration and Customs ball cap - that should do it! That way I will pass once at least. I can also see how it goes once, kind of feel out what I can and can't get away with.

I am also going to get it in as good a tune as possible and throw it on the dyno, to see where it is now. I forgot to mention but I also have a cheapy AFPR, the one where the adjuster is in the center and the vacuum hose goes over it. Looks stock.

Mike, do you have a recommendation on injectors - FIC, RC Engineering, or other, that have the best response time?

[Billibew]

Oklahoma hasn't had an inspection requirement for about 8 years now. Sometimes its good to be in a redneck state. Of course, I see many non road worthy vehicles driving around. Most are heading to an Indian casino hoping to hit the big one.

[caroth]

Installing a PMAS HPX slot sensor in a gutted MAF would be a great modification for the SoCal guys. svojohn on turboford can give you a good price on the sensor. I also have a whole bunch of the 05+ slot sensors and pigtails from a recent junk yard visit.

If anyone has a dead big VAF sensor they want to install and slot sensor in, let me know. I have access to the flanges to weld into a 3" pipe.

Do the CARB guys remove the EEC from the car, or just look in the kick panel for the processor catch code? It would seem a Moates J3 adapter would not be detectable by glancing at the EEC without removing it.

Wiring of the factory VAF plug would only require the VREF source being replaced with a 12V source.

As for my setup with the 95# injectors, I do have considerable wiring changes done to my harness. The power source for the injectors comes from its own relay right off the alternator/battery common post (fuse protected). The MAF is also powered from the alt/bat common post with its own relay and fuse. I have reduced the amp consumption in the EEC allowing it to run cooler.

[caroth]

Mike Ray's SVO would be the perfect candidate to do the VAF/MAF install on since he is in El Paso county, but I heard he was going to megasquirt.

[BlueCASVO]

Mike's right on the smog test. Visual of engine compartment, fuel leak test, EGR function, charcoal canister (purge) test, timing (in CA it MUST be at 10 deg base), idle rpm, then sniff at 1500 and 2500 rpms. When you back off the rollers, if you have dripped any fluids, you can fail for that too - I think that is because of fluids washing down storm drains and into the ocean.

The code violations in CA, where they would check your computer, is when you are driving, and a police officer sees a gauge pillar pod, hears a loud exhaust, and has had a bad day, he'll pull you over for a code check. I hear of it down here occasionally, but it is almost always with the import crowd. You know, Hondas with 5" fart pipes and a gauge pod with a voltmeter and a clock in it. Basically the officer makes you pop the hood, and if the officer sees anything remotely suspicious, he can take your car and send it to a referee who has the ability to really check out your setup, or he can just fine you a lot of money and make you go to court. Hopefully you have a handful of CARB exemption numbers to take with you.

My goal of 325hp and pass emissions is because, fundamentally, I don't have a problem with the whole emissions thing. I think cars should be engineered to produce as few emissions as possible overall. Where I draw the line is, if I can go from VAM to MAF, or add 55's and a J3, and keep the car as good or better than the original spec in terms of overall emissions output, then I should be allowed to do so. Unless you are building a car mostly or exclusively to race, then most of the time you are cruising around town, or on the highway, and you should run as clean as you can given what you have to work with. My 86, all stock with a complete tuneup right before the test, was cleaner in terms of actual CO, HC, and NOx output then either my 2002 mercedes ML or Lissa's 2005 Pontiac SUV - smog guy was blown away by the low numbers for that old of a car. If I could get the 85 to 325hp, and close to my 86 emissions numbers, I would be happy.

Seeing a theme of stable power...sounds like a 3G upgrade is in order. I know my wiring is good, as good as stock wiring harnesses can be.

Will read up on the HPX slot sensor this week...thanks for the tip.

[Pat_in_L.A.]

Issues regarding injector color or VAM vs MAF are moot. These are "test only" cars here. The "technicians" are Voc Ed graduates and ex convicts. They don't know that much because "Test Only" shops don't have to fix them. If all the original emissions devices are installed and working properly, and the car pases the IM tests, you get a congratulatory note from the State for helping clean up the environment and a cert good for 2 years.

[BlueCASVO]

IM-240 is a shortened, loaded test that allegedly matches the hot cycle FTP testwhere the vehicle is "driven" on a dyno simulating speed and load. Obviously it's a much shorter duration. Note that it displays values in grams per mile, not % or PPM.

I was confused earlier, we've been doing the 'dyno' test out here for a long time. I thought the IM-240 was the one where they pressurize your gas tank with nitrogen or something, then check to see if it maintains pressure, then check to see if the added pressure goes to your charcoal canister and up to your air cleaner. This test has only been happening for a couple of years...and I will have to look at my last one on the 86, I could have swore it was in PPM.