increasing redline/flow (winter project planning)

[Alex L]

the motor is breaking in nicely. got some boost creep, and its pulling timing over 4k, but nothing that cant be fixed.

anyway, the holset pulls like a freight train all the way up to redline with the KS disconnected, and has plenty of flow to spare.

current engine setup bottom to top:
arp main studs, con rod bolts.
stock rods.
stock pistons, total seal rings (moly upper IIRC. its taking forever for them to seat)
felpro head gasket
ported head
esslinger billet aux shaft
stock valves and train
e6, 3" all the way out the back.

So im wondering what things need to be upgraded to bump up the redline safely. My thoughts are stiffer valve springs, switching to a roller cam, and upgraded con rods. I do want to switch to a megasquirt as well, and the plan is to go EDIS with a crank trigger.

Thoughts, suggestions?

[SVOeric]

sounds like you've got it all worked out...

as for springs, I know a guy that builds roundy round 2.3's, and he said he uses stock springs up to 9K rpm .. take it for what it's worth

[8T6 SVO]

Depending on the cam you use - will more than likely dictate which valve springs are needed.

If you want the motor to spin, stock crank is good to 7500 RPM, stock rods to 6800 RPM.

If you want to spin higher than that, or just want a margin of safety, you should start to thinking about more durable crank and rods.

Once you get past 7500 RPM, then your going to have to worry about ignition.

[Alex L]

Depending on the cam you use - will more than likely dictate which valve springs are needed.

im thinking the essy E2269 kit. .500 lift 266 dur.@ .050 110 centerline 4000-8100 rpm

If you want the motor to spin, stock crank is good to 7500 RPM, stock rods to 6800 RPM.

dont want to toss down the cash for a billet crank, so 7200 seems to be a good first step with the cam and aftermarket rods. any suggestions?

If you want to spin higher than that, or just want a margin of safety, you should start to thinking about more durable crank and rods.

Once you get past 7500 RPM, then your going to have to worry about ignition.[/QUOTE]

once i get over 4k i need to worry about ign. spark scatter sucks. A full balance is in order as well, i presume?

[schlot]

Just wondering...have been able to dyno your car? If you are shooting for 7K, that number would that only be relevant for 5th gear, as I would guess you are shifting out of all gears well short of that number, closer to where the peak hp hits. Just wondering for wondering sake.

[Alex L]

Just wondering...have been able to dyno your car? If you are shooting for 7K, that number would that only be relevant for 5th gear, as I would guess you are shifting out of all gears well short of that number, closer to where the peak hp hits. Just wondering for wondering sake.

havent had it on a dyno yet, still waiting for the rings to seal up before spending money on dyno time.

i just like a high revving motor. flog on it till it smacks redline, shift hard, and run it out again. my contour's 6800 redline is music to my ears. I want my fun car to spin harder then my daily driver

with the stock turbo, id shift it when the cam runs outta juice, which was ~5200 IIRC. the holset is a totally different beast, it just pulls and pulls and pulls. once i hit the cam limit, the turbo takes up the slack with more boost. its really really stupid fun.

[schlot]

Love it...stupid fun always rocks!

[NavySVO]

Use milder springs for break-in on the cam, and then change them out for the stiffer animal.

[8T6 SVO]

im thinking the essy E2269 kit. .500 lift 266 dur.@ .050 110 centerline 4000-8100 rpm

That is a solid lifter flat tappet circle track cam. I'm sure Essy has something that would work better/properly with your turbo motor and motor goals - maybe not? Then buy the rest of the parts (springs, etc.) to match the cam. Then get someone who knows what they are doing to put it together right. The Essy 2277 is a Turbo cam that works approximently in the RPMs that you've listed above.



dont want to toss down the cash for a billet crank, so 7200 seems to be a good first step with the cam and aftermarket rods. any suggestions?

Rods would be a good start - Crower Sportsmans should work fine to 7200 RPM.




Once you get past 7500 RPM, then your going to have to worry about ignition.

once i get over 4k i need to worry about ign. spark scatter sucks. A full balance is in order as well, i presume?[/QUOTE]

Sounds like you like to spin the motor, get the billet crank & rods.

[Oldham_Racing]

So why is it taking a long time for the rings to seat? What kind of bre finish? What ring end gap?

Gapless? If gapless, where is the gapless ring? Top or second?

In my experience with moly-faced top rings, they'll reach at least 90% of their max sealing in the first hour of operation - unless the bore is very rough. The other 9.999% may take 5-10 more hours of operation.

I agree with what mike said. i just put my motor back together once again 3 weeks ago with total seal rings and they barely even smoked at all. did a little for the first little while of running. but by the end of the night all of the burning/smoking was gone.


as for your set-up that your wanting to go with, i have crower 5.7 sportsman rods for sale. PM me for the price if intersted (i am neogotiable on it since i want them gone and need the money)

i was also advised from my machine shop, that these motors (im talking about the hydralic/roller ones) are not ment to be turned high RPM's. Reason being is that the first part in them to give way is the lifters. so i bought the racer walsh lifter's because they are rated to 7,200 rpms (still doesnt mean they wouldn't come apart at 6,800 RPM's like what they were talking about)

[SVOeric]

the roundy round guy I was talking about earlier told me this a long ago.

If you run anything over about 115 on (closed valve) seat pressure, all you are going to do is compress the lifter when the cam comes around, so it's not worth it. -- which will get worse with RPM

If your cam has a profile so radical that you need 120+ seat pressure, you need to switch to solid lifters.

[Alex L]

Thanks for all the input guys!

mike: gapless top rings. gapped to total seal's spec, which i dont recall offhand. machine shop just did a clean up with a fine hone. ive got about 800 miles on the motor, and the idle smoke is going away. only a slight puff every now and then when sitting at a light. think its more due to the cold weather now then the engine smoking.

8t6: i havent called up esslinger yet to chat about cams, just pursued their catalog. i need to get an exhaust pressure gauge and find out my turbine inlet pressure to manifold pressure ratio where it counts. if its under 1:1, then im going to go pretty radical on the cam.

eric: solid lifters were in the plan, just forgot to mention them.

oldham: are the 5.7 stock replacements? i can never remember if the stock length is 5.5 or 5.7..

[under pressure]

Did you have to do alot of modifications for the Holeset turbo to fit? How much boost are you going to run?

[Alex L]

Did you have to do alot of modifications for the Holeset turbo to fit? How much boost are you going to run?

it bolted right up to the e6. got the replacement oil drain and feed from maxpsi; the drain required welding an inch of a NPT nipple to fit properly, inlet required an adapter from summit. also had to weld up the downpipe, 4" vband necking down to 3" 90 elbow going into a stinger 3" downpipe. .030 over BBC tri-metal head gaskets make wonderful vband gaskets when you cant source a donor holset downpipe. Also had to weld the holset actuator arm to the stock t3 actuator. took about 8hr all said to get it all mated up.

as for boost..... as much as i can!

[Alex L]

I'm not a fan of "gapless" ring technology. I've played with it some and watched hundreds of people drag racing with them. They give good leakdown numbers, initially, but I've never seen a gapless-equipped engine make more power on a dyno or go down the track faster than a normal piston ring equipped engine.

I wasnt expecting super high horsepower gains, picked them mainly cause of their low leakdown numbers.

Iirc they had some serious issues with the top ring being gapless especially in the extremely hostile enviro of a turbo engine. So they moved the gapless ring to the second groove. Now they're back in the top groove? I can't keep up.

im fairly sure they are top gapless. there are 2 gapless kits for the 2.3, for top and second ring gapless.

In any case the second ring slot is absolutely the worst place for a gapless ring - but that's a longer discussion that what this thread is gonna allow so we'll discuss ring sealing dynamics at the next Reunion.

long story short: second ring has less pressure differential then the first ring, and thus lower pressure to seat the ring in the land and against the cyn wall?

BTW - I use stock replacement adjusters to 7500 - iirc they cost me all of $4.50 each. I wouldn't waste any additional $$ on RW's "special" units. Then be sure to shim/cut them as required for your valve train installation to get the proper collapsed clearances.

I had the machine shop setup the top end. think im going to do it next time..

Stock length is 5.200".

*zing!*

and thats why i asked. the 5.7 rods put the wristpin up into the bottom ringlands dont they? if so, im going to pass.. heard too many horror stories about weakend pistons due to wristpin / ringland interference.